We all know what MacGyver stands for, right...?
He hates violence and despises weapons....

Í guess everybody has heard the apalling news by now about what happened at Virginia Tech. Apparantly 31 people got killed by a -so far- unknow gunman.
(Typical, ey, technical university, reminds me a bit of Hell Week...)

Imagine what the world would look like if there were more people like-minded as Mac.
I'm sorry if this post is too political. So if it offends anyone, pls feel free to delete it,

There's no matching smiley here...

I'm here in Virginia and... this is up!

Unfortunately, if a piece of wants to kill people, they're going to get it done. Gun, bomb, knife... take them away and a can of gas and a fire in the middle of the night could kill just as many if not more.

I'm so off right now I'd better not say anymore before I get into trouble.

Yet more needless deaths, because our society is too stupid to regulate firearms properly!

When are we going to learn??

I think Nymphy made a valid point.

These people are hell-bent on killing.. if you take the gun option away, they'll just find some other way.

The war on terror, if nothing else, should at least teach us that when people want to kill they will find any means they can of doing so.

Regulation of guns will only work on the honest people anyway.

All the criminals and morons will still get them through back channels and black markets... or in the case of an out of control uni student.. just steal it from somewhere.

Rock I agree with both you and Nymph. I remember in an Episode of MacGyver, Mac says some about guns killing, the women with him snarks at him "Guns don't kill people do." So Mac shoot back "Oh so Nuclear weapon don't kill the people the lunch them do?"

God I wish I had could have been there I would have piped up "No the people the gave the order to push the button and or drop the booms do." Grated this was back in the 80's and I was thinking US vs. USSR, not loony tune terrorist.

That would be the episode "The Gun"

It was the gun dealer Mac was talking to.

Dealer: "Guns don't kill. The people firing them do."

Mac: "Is that anything like Hydrogen bombs don't kill, it's the people who set them off?

Or something along those lines... its a stupid statement to make in any case, because if you take the gun away, and the person is left pointing his fingers at the other person.. no-ones gonna die.. thus proving it is the gun that kills.

So someone must have been sniffing too much gun smoke when they thought that argument up.

I'm not sure, the argument can work both ways.

A gun is a gun. It's not necessarily a lethal weapon until someone actually fires it.
Accidentally or not. Someone has to pull the trigger first...

It's an argument that can't really be won.. you just go round and round in circles.

I hear on the news, that already the gun lobbiests are saying that if the students had guns they would have been able to defend themselves (i.e. shoot the gunman) so they wouldn't have had so many killed.

The shooter was a 24 yr old Asian student who had been in a fight with his girl friend right before he started shooting.
He killed his girlfriend first, that made way for Norris Hall where all hell broke loose.

How can a person lose his marbles like that???

My heart broke yesterday. It was just apalling. My first reaction was "who needs terrorists...we just do it ourselves..."

At any rate...I agree with Rock, here...if someone wants to hurt/kill someone else, I don't care how many regulations are in place AND actually enforced. They will find a way. Like "the guns don't kill people, people do" thing it's an argument that can't be won. And if the students had all had guns...I don't know that it would have made any difference. Even if all those students had had guns, they weren't ready for anything like that because they had no cause to think "I've got to be ready to fire this gun in my pocket." ...I doubt anyone would have even got off an effective shot. For the lobbyists to say that arming all those students would have prevented so much death is to imply that we have to live in a society where everyone carries a gun and is always vigilant against would-be killers. Unless you're trained military or you're looking behind every bush and around every corner, living your life in constant paranoia, carrying a gun is largely pointless. *shivers* I couldn't live in a world like that.

If students would have carried guns to "protect" themselves, I think the mayhem would only have grown bigger.
Probably a few students would have opened fire at the shooter which could have increased the number of casualties.
Trust me, a lot of people would've had itchy trigger fingers with a wacko like that wandering through the hallways

HEADLINE NEWS

Man dies when jealous rival pushes button and drops boom on his head.

It is all very sad, and it makes me angry that so many innocent people are hurting, families mourning, and tempers raging. The radio is all about it this morning, blaming this person and that person. The only person to blame is the one who was pulling that trigger and reloading.

But... if everyone carried a gun, as some people have suggested, I believe that bullets would be flying around everyday, and there would be even more people hurt or dead because of them. How is that an improvement? I firmly believe in defending myself, but I'd never try to do that with a gun. Give me a can of mace or a roll of quarters instead!

Guns are not the answer to domestic violence. IMO, communication and awareness are our best defenses.

I think society at large is to blame. Namely parents and other figures of authority. There's so much touchy feely, we don't want to hurt their feelings or young psyches that no one enforces rules or follows up with consequences.

Daily on Fox news there are stories of “children” doing the most horrific things. And often, the follow up is how the parents, school board, etc have pushed it under the rug.

IE: A short time ago, and now with more frequency, there was a video of 13 year old females beating a fellow student to a pulp. They videoed it and put in on the web. When it was broadcast across the nation, the parents of the child beaten were interviewed. First they said the didn’t know it had happened. How the hell do you not notice your child has had the crap kicked out of them?? They had that kid down on the ground kicking every body part she had. Then, now aware of it, they said they didn’t want to press charges. The school, where the attack took place, suspended the five “children” for three days. It took Bill O’Reilly going on a tirade before, the parents finally pressed charges and the police took action.

Those kids were going to get away with it! It’s not like a fight broke out and a scuffle ensued. It was premeditated and videoed for to bolster their notoriety. It’s a trend! The thing to do!

It’s disgraceful and more than scary.

You're right Nymphy...it is disgraceful and scary. Parents need to wake up and be involved in their kids' life where the rubber meets the road. Face it...even when your son or daughter rolls their eyes, and says they need space...no they don't. They need you to be the parent and have your finger on the pulse of what makes them tick.

Last night on TV I saw a swat trainer being interviewed.

When asked about why the police response to the school shooting was slow, he commented that the politically correct nature of our society now makes it hard for police to respond with the appropriate force.

They are scared to do anything because of the repercussions to themselves.

They shoot someone they get dragged over the coals about why the didn't try to talk them down, or find some other way of stopping them.

And this doesn't just apply to the U.S. either.. political correctness is rife the world over.

I think a lot of parents feel that they don't have the rights to discipline or control their kids. They don't know what they can or can't do.

You put a kid in timeout and suddenly your being accused of mental abuse or some other equally stupid accusation. You smack an out of control kid on the butt and you get charged with assualt.

Children now have all the rights, yet parents still get all the blame.

When I first heard this story my first thought was Holy not again. My second thoughts were my memeories of Virginia Tech. I spent a week there for specialized training for my job as a chemistin May 2002. The campus is beautiful and populated by some of the most intellegent, down to eartrh people I have ever met. My heart just bleeds for this community. Blackburg is a tiny town, I don't even think they have a McDonalds. The people in the town were as nice, welcoming and kind as anyone I have ever met.

Gun violence in the United States is rampant and will continue to be so as long as we choose violence for our TV, movie, music and video game entertainment. The most popular music in this country glorifies and sexualizes music until the 2 become inextricabley linked in a twisted mind. The warning signs were there. A loner, a person with fantasies of violence, a person troubled enough in his writings to trigger alarm in the professors who read them, a person referred for counseling because of these fantasies, yet no one truly believed he was capable of acting on them. We need to wake up! How many more times does this have to happen before we get a freaking clue. If they are thinking it they will act If the writings are disturbing enough to scare professors into referring this person for counseling how could it be that no one believed he would act on them? People who commit these acts of violence always leave warning signs, they always plan meticulously and they always follow through. When people are unstable, political correctness needs to take a back seat to protection of trhe general population. The rights of the many has to outweigh the rights of the one. Yes I know this is harsh, but if this had been applied last week, 32 people would be studying, laughing, eating dinner with friends, falling in love, planning their futures, living.

For those of you who do not live in the US, here is a little fact to consider. It is easier to buy a gun then it is to buy a car. Literally. Firearms are regulated in name only. A private citizen can sell a gun to another private citizen with no background check or waiting period what so ever. If you have the $$$ you get the gun. In 2004, Congress allowed legislation banning the sale of assault weapons (military weapons)to quietly expire, rather than renew the ban. It is now considered political suicide to speak out against the gun lobby and the power they wield.

The blood hadn't yet congealed before the lines were drawn in the sand. People are screaming why don't we do something about gun control. The gun lobby and its supporters are firing back that if people had been given permits to caryy concealed weapons that fewer people would have been killed. Personally, I beleive that if the students were armed, more of them would have died. The police would be responding to an event with multiple weapons involved and been unable to tell the "good guys" from the bad. If anyone thinks that guns on campus are a good idea, consider this. The University of Utah allows students and professors to carry concealed weapons on campus. i don't think it is a question of if this kind of event takes place here, it is a question of when.

One person, with rage in his heart and revenge on his mind, commits to a senseless, purposeless act of violence and forever alters the perception of reality as we know it. Virginia Tech is experiencing what Salt Lake City experienced 2 months ago. This community will heal. The Hokies have the heart, soul, spirit and mind to overcome this horror that was delivered to them. At this time all we can do is send them our thoughts and kindness, love and prayers, and not just hope, but work for a better future for ourselves and all our children.

If you are angry, if you are outraged, if you are fed up, then take action. Mobilize. Write letters, make phone calls, use the power of forums and blogs and internet media and tell your leaders that enough is enough. Far too often we wring our hands, waiol and wait. The time for waiting is over. An individual has a slim chance to effect change. Masses of individuals moving together, united for a single purpose of common good can move mountains. I live in one of the most gun happy states in the union. There are towns in this state where it is ILLEGAL to not own a gun. I may not have much effect, but I will do what I can. Your right to own a gun ends when it interferes with my rights to LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

I don't ever want to face what the parents of the murdered are facing now. I don't want to have to explain to my son why these things happen. I don't want to explain why I had the chance and did nothing.

I read an excellent editorial in a Virginia paper online this morning. I printed it and if I remember to bring it home with me, I will post it tomorrow.

I know this is a long post and I know it may have offended some of you, but this is my opinion and I will not apologize for the feelings I have right now, even if it is the politically correct thing to do.

Today I woke up and felt so sad and upset about what had happened that I didn't feel like going to class...couldn't stop thinking of the students that went to class yesterday like a normal day and died. When I finally dragged in, I was heartened to see that some students had set up a memorial in the quad with marroon and orange candles, flowers, messages,etc. It was nice to see that students even from a different school were so shocked and moved. At the start of every class, our proffs opened the class up for random discussion on the matter, which was nice, as it was on all of our minds. At lunch a bunch of us went to the florists for flowers to lay.

I'm sure there were numerous factors that led this individual to his murderous rampage, but I find it intriguing and possibly telling that he had written on his arm and also signed his suicide note "Ismail Ax".

Rock, I see what you mean about parental control of children. I'm not sure if more time-outs and butt-swats are the answer (sorry, I'm kind of a Montessori-type parent...to each his own! ), but what is clear is that parents need to be less selfish and more proactive, consistent, and involved in their children's lives. If a parent is not actively raising and guiding a child, society and the media will do it for you, and it won't be pretty. I always tell people considering parenthood to not have more children than you can financially support and put work into raising. It seems often that people have kids, and the actual elbow grease that goes into raising them is more of an afterthought. I'm sure non-involved, non-limit setting parenting has something to do with many violent offenders, but...so many other factors too...like genes, violent video games, etc.

What a sad day...can't imagine what the victims families are going through. My heart goes out to them.

(I'll echo MacGrrl's sentiment above, that if I offended anyone in this post I didn't mean to. I'm the type to just agree to disagree. )

This is one of those topics where everyone has a strong view on why and what to do about it.

Not being from the US, I don't understand the gun wielding mentality. So I'm really not in a position to get involved in the discussion about gun control.

But from an outside perspective, I ponder this... If a bus load of people crashed and killed 33 people.. would there be cries to ban buses or make them safer?

This is a valid point. I'm from the US and not to be a wishy washy dishrag, but I can honestly see both sides. The only time I see it in black and white is when it comes to my immediate safety...this is funny and sad but true. But mostly funny! I am on 2nd floor of an apartment house (not the best neighborhood) and my neighbor downstairs has frequent domestic disturbances with her boyfriend. So what but they both carry Glock 9 millie's. They are always threatening to pull their guns on each other, and my little joke I always say to my neighbor is "Tiny, I hope you never do, but if you ever do pull your gun on Juan, DO NOT fire a warning shot into the air first!" HaHa , but I'm serious- I live right upstairs! My neighbor has promised to keep this in mind...

Rock,

I'm not saying the US should ban all guns. Weapons used for hunting and small caliber handguns used in sport target shooting have legitimate places in our society.

What drives me crazy is the gun lobby's insistance that every American who wants a military or police assault weapon has the right to own one. Automatic and semi-automatic weapons serve no purpose except to kill as many people as possible.

The gun culture in this country has roots going back to the very foundation and birth of the United States as a nation. American children are educated from birth that our founding fathers believed in the ideals of liberty and freedom that they took up arms to overthrow what they believed was an unjust and illegal governance by a foreign government. (Kinda what Iraq thinks about us now) We are taught that if not for guns, we would still be paying homage to a monarchy rather than participating in a representative republic. Guns are as integral to our society as breathing.

The Bill of Rights establishes that all men (and women) are created equally and endowed with certain inalienable rights, among them life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The right to bear arms to raise a militia (the part most gun lobbyists forget about) is the second of the amendments known as the Bill of Rights. The first amendment guarantees American the right to freedom of speech. This freedom was deemed more precious than than any other. That is why the founding fathers placed it first on the list. The right to bear arms against unjust oppressors was deemed a necessary evil of the time.

One has to wonder, what would our founding fathers think of our society today? What would they do if faced with the same choices now as then? Our society is so very different than it was when this country was founded. Two hundred thirty years is a long time for a society to become ingrained to certain aspects of its foundation. The conditions that existed when this country was founded no longer exist today, yet we act as if we are on the verge of attack from sinister forces everywhere.

The culture of guns in American society is as constant as breathing. They permeat every thread of the fabric of society. If you stop and really think about it, MacGyver was revolutionary thinking for American TV in that the hero did not rely on heavy caliber fire power to solve his problems. Today's film, TV, music, and video games glorify violence and worship weaponry. If you have a big problem, get a bigger gun. This mentality is perpetuated by the way we view our media, elect our government and raise our children.

Already the fingers of blame regarding the shootings at VT are pointing at the person who sold the gun, the people who read the writings, the people who sold the ammo. The fingers of blame are pointing everywhere except at each of us as Americans. We all hold some responsibility in these incidents every time they happen and we sit back, wring our hands, but do nothing of substance to make a change.

I know it is hard for non-Americans to comprehend our crazy gun culture. Hopefully this posting will help foster a greater understanding where the love of guns evolved. I keep thinking about this event and American society and I keep coming back to a car bumper sticker I saw several years ago. It read "you can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers". Unfortunately, this seems to be occurring far to often.

I found this editorial online this morning. I found it to be very well written and it captures the essence of the horror at VT as well as reaction to it. I wanted to share it with those who are trying to make sense of the senseless.

Wishing you all peace and good karma.

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satel...45855935007#top

Thank you grrl. I just clicked on this to find I had already read this same one earlier today. Yes, I also found it extemely well-written and eloquent. Thanks for sharing your thoughts...it's the kind of day where we all have alot to think over.

I wonder...

Should the question be guns or no guns... or should the question be why where, what seem like pretty obvious, signs of mental instability ignored?

Surly if the signs where addressed and suitable action taken (counciling, medication, what ever) this situation wouldn't have happened.

... just another angle...

The killer was referred to campus counseling months before his death, but no one followed up to see if he went. Apparently he was on medication.

Look, I'm for then right to bear arms (read: arms, not semi-automatic weapons) and I live in the gun-craziest city in the world. I advocate gun control, but not criminalization of ownership. The reason being is that if guns were outlawed, criminals would still get them, and I wouldn't feel comfortable with a completely unarmed citezenry while criminals would be armed to the teeth. The right to bear arms is also part of our constitution, of which I'm not to keen on tinkering with.

Gun control is something many people can agree on, but even that has been problematic over the years. I think there is some evidence that it does not deter violent crime. Most crazed criminals do not care if there is a waiting period or if the gun is registered in the proper name. And I have yet to hear of a lunatic pausing in the middle of a shooting spree to consider if the gun he's firing off is a legal handgun or an illegal semi-auto.

I think Rock has a valid point in the post above. This whole issue almost transcends guns, and really calls into question why an obviously mentally ill sick individual slipped through the cracks of a society, that in theory, is supposed to have saftey nets in place to prevent these sort of happenings.

Grrl, I think you also have made many valid points, and I respect your position. I agree with many things you have had to say. It's great that you feel so strongly about this issue. Maybe more people in our country will join the national dialogue on this subject, instead of choosing to ignore this problem or trying to wish it away.

Hmmm, since this is a MacGyver forum I half kind of expected every single person to be a rabid anti-gun advocate, but it appears there's views on both sides...I guess this'll teach me to assume that just because we all love MacGyver, we don't all have to think like him!

I heard it on the news too, tonight there's an extra report on it on Telefacts. Don't think I'm not going to watch though.
Main question is what's going on in that person's mind? "Got an argument with my girl, so let's kill 32 students in a university".

Sounds like a nice neighborhood.

Haha.

This once again proves that MacGyver was right. The killing has got to stop and we should try to solve our problems without taking human life.

You know in Belgium there has been a few killings also. On one year time at least three people got killed over an MP3 player. One murder that shocked the most was when I was on the snowboarding trip last year. A kid that entered the station in Brussels-Central got stabbed and killed because he refused to give his MP3 player. Apparently the killer and his friend were from Poland and flew all the way to Belgium just to kill somebody. Not long ago even in my station near town, a kid almost got killed over but they were able to prevent it.
Also only two months or so ago there was family-drama in the Southern part of the country were a mother killed her five children in their house. She called for them in seperate rooms and killed them there while the father was in Tunis or Turkey or something. She tried to kill herself as well. Now the father can cough up the money for the damages in the house.
It's frigging strange world out there.

That is an excellent point Rock. I had the same question when that lady drowned her 3 kids in a bathtub. Everybody knew she was suicidal and unstable, yet not only did they not take away her kids, she got pregnant again! The insanity!


Another interesting question is why are these things happening with such an alarming frequency in the United States and not in other countries? Surely there are pissed off people everywhere?!

Sounds like a nice neighborhood.

We all have tea and crumpets every day precisely at three! It's rough, but not that bad. I've really never felt that unsafe in 9 years living here. Now when I was a teenager living in the suburbs, my car was broken into twice and wallet stolen once. Go figure!

I think what tyla brings up is interesting- why do shootings happen with alarming frequency in the US? Does anyone have any sociological insights? I'm going to mull this one over myself...

Hey, read my post. The things that happened in Belgium are usually also quite dramatic. Families killing each other off, car accidents everyday, kids run over on the streets.

Eleven years ago there was a big case in Belgium about child kidnapper/rapist Marc Dutroux, who kidnapped at least 5 or 6 or more children, abused and killed them with his wife and friend. One of the girls got caught while escaping.
And even more gruesome fact is that when they were about to be buried in the garden, one of the girls was waking up from the tranquilizing, so they put plastic bag around there head. I know how it sounds. There was only
The kidnapper is in jail now. It really was a big case. One of the bigshots who was working on this case lost his job because of this. And in Octobre or November of 1996 there was a White Mars throughout Brussels.
In the year 2000 I think it was, he escaped once. He also complained than that his handcuffs were too "tight". In 2005, nine years after he got arrested, he got his trial. Life prison sentence and he's comfy. He's got television and internet in his cell and all that stuff. I'm sure if ever something happens, that he escapes again the peoples would lynch him.

Also in the early 80's there was a lot to do about the gang of Nijvel, who caused horror in the Delhaize stores for their bloody robberies.

All that stuff happens in the French part of the country, always there. The Southern parts of the country depends on us. It's the lower class of the country. If we close down the money, they're out of jobs there and they refuse to learn to speak Flemish. We're allowing to much.

How ironic- rest assured that France is being taken over by people who refuse to learn to speak French. I feel some of your pain.