In "Cleo Rocks" was Murdoc really in love with penny parker or was he just pretending? I haven't seen all of the MacGyver episodes yet but this is by far my fav Mac vs. Murdoc so far...... call me a romantic but does penny ever appear in another episode with Murdoc???

I think he was and yes, Penny and Murdoc both appears in the episode Serenity.

"Cleo Rocks" was easily one of the funniest of MacGyver's comedic episodes. Much better than Harry's Will or Honest Abe!

Opposites attract, but I think Murdoc was far too cerebral to take PP too seriously.

Joe SAKic- I don't know, i think he was actually in love but your right about Penny and him not quite fitting in the brain department... shes smart but not like Murdoc brain type thing...... but i think the fact she was diff from him is what made him like her

I could see him and her together, just as long as he is in a wheelchair and being a romantic french man who directs horrible plays.

I cannot recall there ever being any romantic attraction between Murdoc and Penny. I believe he was pretending to show affection.

Moreover, I vaguely remember what occurred in the episode

I don't know, I think it started out using penny to get to mac and pete, but when he has her chained up in the end you can almost see the look of disappointment on his face as Penny rejects him and he feels his scared up face knowing that she could never love him. He was being romantic to her by buying her that dress and giving her compliments.

It would be funny if in the spin off even if it was like a secret episode if they have a episode where penny and murdoc got married and had a kid. The kid was a dim witted assassin, who tried to follow in his fathers footsteps but keeps messing things up because he is so dull.

Sounds intriguing!

So then Mac would have to come along and be nice and try to stop the kid from actually assassinating someone.

Or maybe that role would fall to Sam.

You have a point. I reckon it will follow a similar storyline as the original, and much will merely be a rehash of the same thing, On the contrary, it sounds kind of interesting if you mentally envision the possibility of Murdoc and Penny getting hitched and having a child that ends up being a silly professional killer. Sounds more like a comedy to me!

He may end up being a simple-minded individual as an aftereffect of his mom's genes.

hey now, Penny's not THAT dull-witted

but seriously that would be funny, Mac would prob end up being nice to their son just because he has no clue what he's doing...............
But wait

If they have a kid then Murdoc is still alive so Murdoc would keep trying to kill Mac but Murdoc Jr. would get in the way of his dad and accidently ruin the trap every time

Your definitley right MacGyver1985!! It would be more of a comedy

so many possibilities though. Murdoc has a elaborate trap set up for mac that took him days to make. His son comes walking with what he thinks is a gun to shoot macgyver (but in reality it is just a branch from a tree shaped like a gun). As he walks in holding the branch (gun) he trips over the trap murdoc set and sets it off, wasting days all of murdocs time.

So then SAM gets Murdoc and Murdoc Junior out of the trap, but he's going to kill them because it turns out Murdoc was involved in killing SAM's mother. And Mac has to talk him out of killing them because Mac is not an avenging sort of hero. Heck, he even tried to save Deborah.

I know this is pretty late to respond to this, but I wanted to add my two cents.
I agree that Murdoc probably meant what he said when he confessed his feelings. I don't think there really was any point in pretending to like her. He did look pretty brokenhearted, though he obviously got over it quickly.
I always thought that scene could be improved. He went on and on for too long about how Penny made him feel. I almost gagged . I think he should have shortened it to "My feelings for you were the one part of my act that wasn't fake" or whatever.

It was just poorly acted even though I did believe Penny made something loose in Murdoc. Even though he might never stop to try and kill MacGyver. She would dump him and in the end try to kill her.

Why am I the only person who likes this episode?! Honestly, Murdoc confessing his love for her was a highlight for me. And so was MDB's acting during that scene. But what do I know? I'm the hopeless romantic who's in love with the guy. *shrugs*

Anyway... Here are a couple of screenshots from MDB that might help shed some light on the subject. You can click the thumbnail to see the picture larger.

Those are really interesting! And I do like Cleo Rocks, but I thought he overdid it a bit. But I think his dialogue kinda gives us a light into his past. He must have had a pretty rough life. I've always felt sorry for him

I guess I can understand that. I'm used to William Shatner's overacting, so I'm probably desensitized to that a little bit.

I agree wholeheartedly. The look on his face when she rejects him kills me every single time. The worst part of it for me is that he just looks so resigned. I've talked to Uniquelyjas about this before, but he just seems to completely understand. He doesn't like what Penny says and he's hurt by it, but he isn't in the least bit surprised. His expression just seems to say, "I get it, because I wouldn't love me, either." And *that* just gets me worse than *anything.*
MDB has said before that Murdoc doesn't care if he lives or dies, and I think that his reaction in "Cleo Rocks" just underscores that. Murdoc has nothing at all to live for, and that's just so scary and so sad.

I totally agree with what Sanguine wrote above. Since talking with her and paying more attention to Murdoc episodes, I see Cleo Rocks, and this scene in particular, in a whole new light. Yes, Mac is still my number one guy, but I'm realizing there's a lot more to Murdoc than meets the eye. I really do feel for him in this scene and I think it was acted well. For those who thought it was overacted, perhaps that's because we're used to seeing the "mean", more one-dimensional Murdoc (just my opinion.) OK, there are my two cents!

MDB is a nice guy, and he probably did really care about Teri Hatcher. Maybe he used that to bring out that compassionate side of Murdoc towards Penny, making it more realistic.

I don't see it being that hard for Murdoc to love Penny. He mentions that Ashton was "his innocence". So most likely he fell in love with Penny due to her own innocence. Even MacGyver had a brotherly need to protect Penny for the same reasons... she was innocent, naive and trying to do her best.

The one thing I always regretted about Murdoc's storyline is that we never really found out about his past. I understand that nobody's perfect, and that we all have selfish tendencies, but nobody's born a hitman. Murdoc looked briefly sad in "Halloween Knights" when he mentioned the death of his parents, so he must have been pushed over the edge at some point in his life.
I can't help but notice the way Penny told him that "Jaque Larue (did I spell that right?) lives in you," or whatever. The look on his face when she says that gives me the impression that he realized Penny believed in him, long after he stopped believing in himself. "Cleo Rocks", "Halloween Knights", and "Strictly Business" gave me the impression that part of him regrets the path he took in life, and that sometimes he wishes he could change, but doesn't believe he even can.
It breaks my heart to think about.

I just love all of the great discussion in this thread right now. So many good points!

Uniquely: I like that you pointed out the "mean, one-dimensional" Murdoc, because that's probably what he wants people to see. It's like you were saying on the Halloween Knights thread: he always has to keep his distance from everyone, so he has all of those barriers to hide the person inside.
...I kinda hate to make this comparison, but I just now thought of the Doctor Who episode "The Girl in the Fireplace." Every time he meets a bad guy, the Tenth Doctor makes a big deal about how he's the Oncoming Storm and the man who singlehandedly destroyed the Time Lords and the Daleks and blah blah blah, but then when he met Reinette, she was able to recognize the "lonely little boy" that he really was inside. I think it's much the same with Murdoc. Penny was able to recognize the person inside Murdoc that he'd always been forced to hide---even from himself.

Jedi: Oh, absolutely! I wouldn't at all be surprised if MDB used his real friendship to influence the scene, especially since he brought a lot of himself to the character in other places throughout the series.
And I love it that you brought up Penny's innocence and that connection to Ashton. I couldn't agree with you more. Penny is everything that Murdoc can never have.

Dragon: I think you hit the nail on the head, in every regard. Clearly, Murdoc hasn't led an easy life, and to be honest, even if he's proud of himself and the work that he's done, there has to be some part of him that isn't as okay with it as he claims to be. He very obviously doesn't have psychopathic/sociopathic tendencies, so just from human nature alone, there has to be some part of him, even if it's buried deep inside, that's a little traumatized by everything that he's been through, both because of his career and whatever happened in his past.

YES!!! I could not have said that better myself.

I like to think that Murdoc put a lot of himself into the character of Jacques Leroux. The episode (and his reactions) imply that after a while, he wasn't just acting, which means that Penny very likely got to know the "real" Murdoc. Jacques may have been a character, but that doesn't mean that everything Murdoc said and did was a lie. Penny probably did fall in love with the person that Murdoc used to be or could have been if things worked out differently---but like you said, Murdoc doesn't see a way out.

Did you notice that, at the end of the episode, when MacGyver shows Penny those creepy stalker photos of Murdoc in all his different escapades, she doesn't react with horror or anger or disgust. Instead, she comments on how lonely he must be. And it's true---he must be very lonely indeed. In my opinion, Penny's reaction to that says a lot about them both.

Interestingly enough, MacGyver and Murdoc actually have a few things in common. They both lost so much, and it shaped who they became. Mac became a hero, trying to do good no matter what, and Murdoc became... well, we all know what he became. Mac had his Grandpa Harry's advice, and a lot of friends, though. Murdoc had no one.

It kinda reminds me of something I read in the second book of my favorite series The Unnaturals: Escape from Lions Head by Devon Hughes. I won't post the full quote, since it's long, and doesn't completely make since without reading the rest of the book, but it basically boiled down to, "You can't do everything on your own".

I agree. There really isn't an excuse for all the things that Murdoc has done, but when you put the pieces together and see that he didn't have the same guidance and opportunities that MacGyver had, his actions become more understandable.

I like what you said about MacGyver becoming a hero while Murdoc became the opposite due to MacGyver having other people in his life.

It seems to me that a lot of Murdoc's thinking is based around revenge.
He showed up in "Partners" to get revenge on MacGyver and Pete.
In "The Widowmaker," he shouted out, "It's your turn to burn, MacGyver!"
In "Cleo Rocks," he lamented to Pete in the cage about how he had once made a very good living off of assassinations and took great pride in his work before Pete and MacGyver showed up to "spoil his fun."
And in some ways, "Halloween Knights" is a tale of revenge, too---taking out Helman and HIT as an act of vengeance because they stole his sister.
Since Murdoc is so preoccupied with avenging all the wrongs (perceived or justified) that we see in the episodes, I have to wonder if perhaps the reason that Murdoc became a professional killer was partly to seek retribution against the world. You know---some men just want to watch the world burn, and that old schtick. Could it be that Murdoc enjoys killing people so much because he sees himself as a crusader taking out his anger on a world that has caused him so much pain? <shrugs> Who knows?

MacGyver has a lot that he could be angry about in his life, too---but instead of clinging on to any pent-up rage, he channels himself into positive things. MacGyver is also a lot more forgiving and empathetic than Murdoc usually is. Whether that's by nature or nurture, who can say?

I also wonder if some of that could be due to a spiritual influence in MacGyver's background. As far as I know, he never explicitly states his beliefs in the series, but in some places, I think there's a bit of implication that he could have a Christian background. In the episode where he dressed as a priest to stop the assassin (was that episode called "The Assassin" or something like that? I don't recall), he knew enough about Catholicism to know that a real priest would genuflect at the altar, while an imposter wouldn't. And it's been a long time since I've seen "The Madonna," but I think that he was good friends with a priest. So that establishes that MacGyver has knowledge of Christian principles and the Christian moral code. And whether MacGyver is "religious" or not, his overall worldview and personal code of ethics does jive with a lot of Christian (or at least spiritual/religious) thinking. So Mac probably received some kind of moral teachings or mentoring at some point in his life. Now, I'm not going to say that religion/spirituality is the reason that MacGyver has the morality that he has, but I will say that it couldn't have hurt him any.

Murdoc, on the other hand--- Obviously, I'm not going to say that a lack of moral teaching would mean that Murdoc doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. That would be ridiculous. But I will say that if you believed that murdering people would send you to a terrible afterlife or a terrible rebirth in the next reincarnation cycle, you'd probably be inclined to avoid murdering someone, even if you were angry at the entire world. Whereas if you didn't believe in an afterlife and you also didn't see any reason to hold yourself to the social contract of the earthly world, then it stands to reason that that person would be more likely to turn to crime than someone who fears for his immortal soul and/or fears/respects the earthly consequences of human law.

Murdoc obviously has some kind of code of honor, as seen in "Strictly Business," but he probably only applies this code to those he sees as equals. He probably dehumanizes everyone else. He has no regard for the law, so he's free to enact his own personal standards as a twisted kind of justice. And since he has no reason to live, he doesn't fear death...and not fearing death could also indicate that he has no fear of any consequences for the way he's lived his life.

........And also, I really do hate to make this reference, but in some ways they're kind of like the Jedi and the Sith. MacGyver works for the greater good, and Murdoc let his anger guide him to the dark side of the Force.

(I hope that's halfway coherent. I'm writing this too late at night. If it's not---ask me again in the morning, and I'll either be able to clarify my point or I'll just confuse myself. )

I agree. There really isn't an excuse for all the things that Murdoc has done, but when you put the pieces together and see that he didn't have the same guidance and opportunities that MacGyver had, his actions become more understandable.

I like what you said about MacGyver becoming a hero while Murdoc became the opposite due to MacGyver having other people in his life.

It seems to me that a lot of Murdoc's thinking is based around revenge.
He showed up in "Partners" to get revenge on MacGyver and Pete.
In "The Widowmaker," he shouted out, "It's your turn to burn, MacGyver!"
In "Cleo Rocks," he lamented to Pete in the cage about how he had once made a very good living off of assassinations and took great pride in his work before Pete and MacGyver showed up to "spoil his fun."
And in some ways, "Halloween Knights" is a tale of revenge, too---taking out Helman and HIT as an act of vengeance because they stole his sister.
Since Murdoc is so preoccupied with avenging all the wrongs (perceived or justified) that we see in the episodes, I have to wonder if perhaps the reason that Murdoc became a professional killer was partly to seek retribution against the world. You know---some men just want to watch the world burn, and that old schtick. Could it be that Murdoc enjoys killing people so much because he sees himself as a crusader taking out his anger on a world that has caused him so much pain? <shrugs> Who knows?

MacGyver has a lot that he could be angry about in his life, too---but instead of clinging on to any pent-up rage, he channels himself into positive things. MacGyver is also a lot more forgiving and empathetic than Murdoc usually is. Whether that's by nature or nurture, who can say?

I also wonder if some of that could be due to a spiritual influence in MacGyver's background. As far as I know, he never explicitly states his beliefs in the series, but in some places, I think there's a bit of implication that he could have a Christian background. In the episode where he dressed as a priest to stop the assassin (was that episode called "The Assassin" or something like that? I don't recall), he knew enough about Catholicism to know that a real priest would genuflect at the altar, while an imposter wouldn't. And it's been a long time since I've seen "The Madonna," but I think that he was good friends with a priest. So that establishes that MacGyver has knowledge of Christian principles and the Christian moral code. And whether MacGyver is "religious" or not, his overall worldview and personal code of ethics does jive with a lot of Christian (or at least spiritual/religious) thinking. So Mac probably received some kind of moral teachings or mentoring at some point in his life. Now, I'm not going to say that religion/spirituality is the reason that MacGyver has the morality that he has, but I will say that it couldn't have hurt him any.

Murdoc, on the other hand--- Obviously, I'm not going to say that a lack of moral teaching would mean that Murdoc doesn't know the difference between right and wrong. That would be ridiculous. But I will say that if you believed that murdering people would send you to a terrible afterlife or a terrible rebirth in the next reincarnation cycle, you'd probably be inclined to avoid murdering someone, even if you were angry at the entire world. Whereas if you didn't believe in an afterlife and you also didn't see any reason to hold yourself to the social contract of the earthly world, then it stands to reason that that person would be more likely to turn to crime than someone who fears for his immortal soul and/or fears/respects the earthly consequences of human law.

Murdoc obviously has some kind of code of honor, as seen in "Strictly Business," but he probably only applies this code to those he sees as equals. He probably dehumanizes everyone else. He has no regard for the law, so he's free to enact his own personal standards as a twisted kind of justice. And since he has no reason to live, he doesn't fear death...and not fearing death could also indicate that he has no fear of any consequences for the way he's lived his life.

........And also, I really do hate to make this reference, but in some ways they're kind of like the Jedi and the Sith. MacGyver works for the greater good, and Murdoc let his anger guide him to the dark side of the Force.

(I hope that's halfway coherent. I'm writing this too late at night. If it's not---ask me again in the morning, and I'll either be able to clarify my point or I'll just confuse myself. )

No, I totally see what you mean.

I do know that rebooted Murdoc says that a lot of the people he kills deserve to die the way they do, and that the world is better off without them. I wonder if original Murdoc thinks the same way. He never says how his parents died, but sometimes I wonder how it would have been if they had been murdered. Maybe he hopes that as he kills all the people he was hired to kill, he might eventually get to the one/ones who ruined his life.

That entire conversation with Reboot Murdoc was my favorite moment of the entire new series so far. Even though his worldview is perhaps a bit twisted, you can certainly see the logic behind his arguments, and he did make a very good point. I definitely wouldn't rule out the possibility that the original Murdoc thinks that way as well, and I think that your theory is a very good possibility. I wouldn't at all be surprised if that were true, honestly.

Another thing to consider is that Murdoc not only lacked good people in his life, but was influenced by bad people. Of course, Murdoc's still responsible for his own bad choices, but he might not have made them under different circumstances.

Say Murdoc's parents died when he was 16 or so, and Ashton was still a baby, forcing him to scramble to help them both survive. He may have dropped her at a doorstep of a foster home, and ran away, having no idea where to go or who to turn to. If Nicolas found him at this point, and Murdoc was feeling helpless, scared, and alone, Nicolas knew just how to manipulate him, and Murdoc didn't think he had other options. Eventually, he may have lost sight of his own morals, and Penny Parker reminded him of what he used to be.

Kinda funny, how this was just a discussion of Penny and Murdoc's relationship, but escalated into this full-blown back story thing

Kinda funny that you should mention all of this, because I actually completely agree with you. I even wrote an entire short story on this premise, and it's actually very similar to the points you just brought up. I hadn't gotten around to posting it yet because I was waiting until after the holidays, but it seems like great minds think alike!

Yeah, the discussion sort of spiraled, but I love that. Everything is connected to everything else.