Ice won't work, Originally started by Rockatteer
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Amy
Posted: 2 November 2006 - 01:57 PM                                    
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First post was on June 26, 2005 and last was on July 4, 2006.

Rockatteer:
QUOTE
Something has just occurred to me about the way MacGyver used ice to break and open things.

You’ll remember in Last stand he used ice to open the freezer door and in To be a man he used ice to help break the rock off the cliff, which then fell onto the jeep below.

Both of these MacGyverisms claim to work because ice expands as it freezes, which is true, however ice normally expands into the available space, if there is any

Anyone remember freezing drinks to take to school? Remember being told to leave the lid of the drink bottle so it wouldn’t crack as the drink froze? That’s because the frozen drink expanded towards the top of the drink bottle. Frozen water will always expand to the lest resistance… in other words if there’s some empty space, the ice will expand into it.

Now in the case of ‘To be a man’ Mac poured water into the crack of the rock and froze it….in real life the ice would have simply expanded UP towards to top of the crack and maybe along the length of the crack, but it wouldn’t exert any pressure against the walls of the crack as they MacGyverism leads you to believe.

Likewise in ‘Last stand’, Mac used the same principle with ice in the door lock. The idea being that the ice expanded and broke the lock… problem is, again the ice would expand out through the key holes, and probably would actually seal up the hole it was running in through, thus defeating the MacGyverism before it even got going.


Sylviagzz:
QUOTE
Rock... I think that your train of thought is correct, but..

also the one MacGyver was using, becasue I think he was more relying on the freezing expansion of the material that he was freezing rather than the expansion of the water he was using...
the metal in the lock itself expands when frozen... there for it broke the lock... the rock itself expands if frozen, so it breaks..

just like the train tracks, and other rails, they always leave spaces in between to allow the metal to expand in the winter... and the rocks in the dessert crack and break in the night temperatures, spacing between bricks and cement plaques are left also so they don't crack and break even if there is no water.

Don't you think?

Sylvia


Rockatteer:
QUOTE
Metals expand when hot and contract when cold.

Water is the only substance that expands when both cold or hot. (hence Macs comment about water being funny stuff, it expands when it freezes, most meterials contract when cold or frozen)


Sylviagzz:
QUOTE
Well, it sounded right in my head...he, he...


MEP:
QUOTE
Well that is why when I get a ring stuck on my finget I hold my hand up and ust a hair dryer on the ring.


Thyla:
QUOTE
In the case of the rock, I agree, it would not have worked. However, locks are routinely broken using various freeezing techniques. The question in that case would have been more: was it cold enough to do that? I believe his freon trick (in another episode) would have worked fine on a lock.


Rockatteer:
QUOTE
QUOTE
However, locks are routinely broken using various freeezing techniques. The question in that case would have been more: was it cold enough to do that?




Hmmm.... I would say theres probably no way in hell that you could use ice to get metal cold enough to break.... liquid nitorgen! now theres a kewl toy to play with! that'll freeze anything to breaking point.


MacGirl:
QUOTE
Yeah, I don't know for sure what besides liquid nitrogen would get metal cold enough to break. I saw an ep of CSI:Miami (first season, I think) in which they discussed replacing locks, and said that *something* was sprayed into the lock to disrupt the tumblers. (Don't think it was liquid N, though.) But anyway, yeah, it's a cool idea, but I think this was one of the (many) MacGyverisms that got exaggerated: while the general principle is correct, the specifics are off.


Nick Kismet:
QUOTE
my thoughts on this:
Water freezing into ice can and does break rock--the idea that ice will expand along the course of least resistance might work in a juice bottle in your freezer, but there are limits. At 4 degrees Celsius, water is at its most dense (and therefore occupies the least amount of volume) so just before it freezes, the water molecule is at its most compact. If it freezes rapidly (which it won't do in an ordinary freezer) it will expand in every direction, with enough force to split rock along its normal fracture plane. I can't remember the specifics of either of the afforementioned MacGyverisms, but I would say that the concept is less faulty than some.

That being said, I seem to recall that the producers of the show were a little worried about putting some of this information in the hands of unscrupulous individuals and so purposely exaggerated or omitted crucial information in order to protect themselves from liability. Using ice to break locks is just such a case. In fact, there has been a huge problem with people shooting blasts of compressed CO2 into lock mechanisms, particularly bike locks, in order to disable the mechanism inside. Lock casings are made of steel, but inside, where it counts, they're made of much softer stuff, usually brass.


Rockatteer:
QUOTE
QUOTE
I seem to recall that the producers of the show were a little worried about putting some of this information in the hands of unscrupulous individuals and so purposely exaggerated or omitted crucial information in order to protect themselves from liability




Yeah, they always left out something with explosive macgyverisms.


PepperTech:
QUOTE
Make things easier, carry a small can of liquid nitrogen. tongue.gif The one with water in the lock sorta make sense though cause it would fill the hollow parts of the door first and spill out the hole in the back but also has to expand a bit. One would have to lock themselves in a big freezer to test the theory.


zero40484:
QUOTE
dont know about the water thing, but if you spray "air in a can" while holding it upside down, it can freeze stuff, once in a shop class i broke a lock like that for a teacher, he was amused, then he asked how i lernt that, i just said "my colorful youth", he chuckled, and thanked me for opening his tool room.

a bolt cutter is ucesless of you cant unlock the door to the tool room.


MacGirl:
QUOTE
I just had an idea of why the MacGyverism may have worked in To Be a Man. hmm.bmp It's possible that the freezing made the rock very brittle, and a little pressure (in the form of prying) was enough to complete the break that had already started. In other words, it *would* actually have worked, but not for the reason given. Also, the amount of force necessary to break it may have gotten exaggerated.

What do you guys think?


Asbjorn:
QUOTE
Yup, sounds likely. but yet again, unless he used liquid nitrogen it's not all that likely anyway, as it won't get that cold


MacGyverPeter:
QUOTE
Wouldn't the climate in the Episode "To Be A Man" a little contradictory to what MacGyver was doing with ice also ?


Rockatteer:
QUOTE
I'm not sure what the Afgan climate is like, but from memory, the episodes suggested that they where in a desert like enviroment, deserts get very cold at night.

MacGyver talked about how the rock would still be cold from the low overnight temperature. So that part may have been accurate.


MacGirl:
QUOTE
You're right about that, Rock. I used to live in Colorado, which is a semi-arid climate. Parts of the state are like a desert, and extreme cold at night followed by extreme heat in the day during the summer can cause rocks to break apart naturally because of the influence temperature plays in expanding the cracks between them. Cold winters followed by hot summers can also cause the rocks to break apart. When MacGyver was preparing to widen the gap between the rocks using ice, I understood what the principle was supposed to be behind it. Parts of Afghanistan are mountainous, too, from what I've seen on the news, which could also cause cooler temperatures at night from higher altitudes.



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QUOTE (Amy @ 3 November 2006 - 11:23 AM)
First post was on June 26, 2005 and last was on July 4, 2006.

Rockatteer:
QUOTE
Something has just occurred to me about the way MacGyver used ice to break and open things.

You’ll remember in Last stand he used ice to open the freezer door and in To be a man he used ice to help break the rock off the cliff, which then fell onto the jeep below.

Both of these MacGyverisms claim to work because ice expands as it freezes, which is true, however ice normally expands into the available space, if there is any

Anyone remember freezing drinks to take to school? Remember being told to leave the lid of the drink bottle so it wouldn’t crack as the drink froze? That’s because the frozen drink expanded towards the top of the drink bottle. Frozen water will always expand to the lest resistance… in other words if there’s some empty space, the ice will expand into it.

Now in the case of ‘To be a man’ Mac poured water into the crack of the rock and froze it….in real life the ice would have simply expanded UP towards to top of the crack and maybe along the length of the crack, but it wouldn’t exert any pressure against the walls of the crack as they MacGyverism leads you to believe.

Likewise in ‘Last stand’, Mac used the same principle with ice in the door lock. The idea being that the ice expanded and broke the lock… problem is, again the ice would expand out through the key holes, and probably would actually seal up the hole it was running in through, thus defeating the MacGyverism before it even got going.


Sylviagzz:
QUOTE
Rock... I think that your train of thought is correct, but..

also the one MacGyver was using, becasue I think he was more relying on the freezing expansion of the material that he was freezing rather than the expansion of the water he was using...
the metal in the lock itself expands when frozen... there for it broke the lock... the rock itself expands if frozen, so it breaks..

just like the train tracks, and other rails, they always leave spaces in between to allow the metal to expand in the winter... and the rocks in the dessert crack and break in the night temperatures, spacing between bricks and cement plaques are left also so they don't crack and break even if there is no water.

Don't you think?

Sylvia


Rockatteer:
QUOTE
Metals expand when hot and contract when cold.

Water is the only substance that expands when both cold or hot. (hence Macs comment about water being funny stuff, it expands when it freezes, most meterials contract when cold or frozen)


Sylviagzz:
QUOTE
Well, it sounded right in my head...he, he...


MEP:
QUOTE
Well that is why when I get a ring stuck on my finget I hold my hand up and ust a hair dryer on the ring.


Thyla:
QUOTE
In the case of the rock, I agree, it would not have worked. However, locks are routinely broken using various freeezing techniques. The question in that case would have been more: was it cold enough to do that? I believe his freon trick (in another episode) would have worked fine on a lock.


Rockatteer:
QUOTE
QUOTE
However, locks are routinely broken using various freeezing techniques. The question in that case would have been more: was it cold enough to do that?




Hmmm.... I would say theres probably no way in hell that you could use ice to get metal cold enough to break.... liquid nitorgen! now theres a kewl toy to play with! that'll freeze anything to breaking point.


MacGirl:
QUOTE
Yeah, I don't know for sure what besides liquid nitrogen would get metal cold enough to break. I saw an ep of CSI:Miami (first season, I think) in which they discussed replacing locks, and said that *something* was sprayed into the lock to disrupt the tumblers. (Don't think it was liquid N, though.) But anyway, yeah, it's a cool idea, but I think this was one of the (many) MacGyverisms that got exaggerated: while the general principle is correct, the specifics are off.


Nick Kismet:
QUOTE
my thoughts on this:
Water freezing into ice can and does break rock--the idea that ice will expand along the course of least resistance might work in a juice bottle in your freezer, but there are limits. At 4 degrees Celsius, water is at its most dense (and therefore occupies the least amount of volume) so just before it freezes, the water molecule is at its most compact. If it freezes rapidly (which it won't do in an ordinary freezer) it will expand in every direction, with enough force to split rock along its normal fracture plane. I can't remember the specifics of either of the afforementioned MacGyverisms, but I would say that the concept is less faulty than some.

That being said, I seem to recall that the producers of the show were a little worried about putting some of this information in the hands of unscrupulous individuals and so purposely exaggerated or omitted crucial information in order to protect themselves from liability. Using ice to break locks is just such a case. In fact, there has been a huge problem with people shooting blasts of compressed CO2 into lock mechanisms, particularly bike locks, in order to disable the mechanism inside. Lock casings are made of steel, but inside, where it counts, they're made of much softer stuff, usually brass.


Rockatteer:
QUOTE
QUOTE
I seem to recall that the producers of the show were a little worried about putting some of this information in the hands of unscrupulous individuals and so purposely exaggerated or omitted crucial information in order to protect themselves from liability




Yeah, they always left out something with explosive macgyverisms.


PepperTech:
QUOTE
Make things easier, carry a small can of liquid nitrogen. tongue.gif The one with water in the lock sorta make sense though cause it would fill the hollow parts of the door first and spill out the hole in the back but also has to expand a bit. One would have to lock themselves in a big freezer to test the theory.


zero40484:
QUOTE
dont know about the water thing, but if you spray "air in a can" while holding it upside down, it can freeze stuff, once in a shop class i broke a lock like that for a teacher, he was amused, then he asked how i lernt that, i just said "my colorful youth", he chuckled, and thanked me for opening his tool room.

a bolt cutter is ucesless of you cant unlock the door to the tool room.


MacGirl:
QUOTE
I just had an idea of why the MacGyverism may have worked in To Be a Man. hmm.bmp It's possible that the freezing made the rock very brittle, and a little pressure (in the form of prying) was enough to complete the break that had already started. In other words, it *would* actually have worked, but not for the reason given. Also, the amount of force necessary to break it may have gotten exaggerated.

What do you guys think?


Asbjorn:
QUOTE
Yup, sounds likely. but yet again, unless he used liquid nitrogen it's not all that likely anyway, as it won't get that cold


MacGyverPeter:
QUOTE
Wouldn't the climate in the Episode "To Be A Man" a little contradictory to what MacGyver was doing with ice also ?


Rockatteer:
QUOTE
I'm not sure what the Afgan climate is like, but from memory, the episodes suggested that they where in a desert like enviroment, deserts get very cold at night.

MacGyver talked about how the rock would still be cold from the low overnight temperature. So that part may have been accurate.


MacGirl:
QUOTE
You're right about that, Rock. I used to live in Colorado, which is a semi-arid climate. Parts of the state are like a desert, and extreme cold at night followed by extreme heat in the day during the summer can cause rocks to break apart naturally because of the influence temperature plays in expanding the cracks between them. Cold winters followed by hot summers can also cause the rocks to break apart. When MacGyver was preparing to widen the gap between the rocks using ice, I understood what the principle was supposed to be behind it. Parts of Afghanistan are mountainous, too, from what I've seen on the news, which could also cause cooler temperatures at night from higher altitudes.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but the expanding ice in the rock in "To be a Man" is real, i mean the rock will break. For one, the science and nature of water. the othe, Mac kicks ant the rock. I suppose the ice was to weaken the atomic structure of the rock. (the closer atoms are to each other, the stronger the material will be)



In my oppinion, Graham Bell has a lot to answer for. It gets harder and harder to escape from the world, the news and worst of all, people.

 
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QUOTE (Issus @ 21 March 2008 - 02:48 AM)
Stop me if I'm wrong, but the expanding ice in the rock in "To be a Man" is real, i mean the rock will break. For one, the science and nature of water. the othe, Mac kicks ant the rock.

Well if you read my first comments, you'll see that i talked about expanding ice would most probably expand along the crack in the rock and out the top, which we actually see it do in that scene. The ice clumps up on the top of the rock instead of down inside it.

Maybe he should have poked the fire extinguisher down into the crack to freeze the water which ran down inside it, rather than freezing the top of it.

QUOTE
I suppose the ice was to weaken the atomic structure of the rock. (the closer atoms are to each other, the stronger the material will be)

You'll need to explain that. Because when somethign gets cold or freezes, the atoms get closer together.. so the ice would have made the rock colder, ergo the atoms closer together, and the rock would be stronger.

Of coarse the question still remains, how did he know there was a crack in that rock in the first place?



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QUOTE (Rockatteer @ 21 March 2008 - 10:34 AM)
QUOTE (Issus @ 21 March 2008 - 02:48 AM)
Stop me if I'm wrong, but the expanding ice in the rock in "To be a Man" is real, i mean the rock will break. For one, the science and nature of water. the othe, Mac kicks ant the rock.

Well if you read my first comments, you'll see that i talked about expanding ice would most probably expand along the crack in the rock and out the top, which we actually see it do in that scene. The ice clumps up on the top of the rock instead of down inside it.

Maybe he should have poked the fire extinguisher down into the crack to freeze the water which ran down inside it, rather than freezing the top of it.

QUOTE
I suppose the ice was to weaken the atomic structure of the rock. (the closer atoms are to each other, the stronger the material will be)

You'll need to explain that. Because when somethign gets cold or freezes, the atoms get closer together.. so the ice would have made the rock colder, ergo the atoms closer together, and the rock would be stronger.

Of coarse the question still remains, how did he know there was a crack in that rock in the first place?

[QUOTE]so the ice would have made the rock colder, ergo the atoms closer together, and the rock would be stronger.

I have read your comments, and I think your reasoning is quite logical. It would have made it stronger on the sides of the rock, but because it was expanding, it was cutting across the structure, separating it into two, creating the crack (I think). As for how he knew it was there, I supose that a big chunk of rock like that would have been easy to spot, and I supose that it was just luck, or maybe built to do that.



In my oppinion, Graham Bell has a lot to answer for. It gets harder and harder to escape from the world, the news and worst of all, people.

 
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Does not answering mean that this discussion is over? unsure.gif



In my oppinion, Graham Bell has a lot to answer for. It gets harder and harder to escape from the world, the news and worst of all, people.

 
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QUOTE (Issus @ 21 March 2008 - 11:47 AM)
I have read your comments, and I think your reasoning is quite logical. It would have made it stronger on the sides of the rock, but because it was expanding, it was cutting across the structure, separating it into two, creating the crack (I think).

what was expanding?



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I think that the ice will follow the path of least resistance, but I do also think it might cause some pressure inside the crack. A bottle of water that is frozen without a lid will not only have the ice pushing upward it will also be firm. Of course, that is plastic and not rock! It's like some other MacGyverisms that are plausible but would require larger amounts of supplies or power than what was used in the show. Perhaps total flooding of the crack followed by extreme change in temperature would be enough.



 
                                                                     
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I was just learning this in Science Class! But, if my understanding is correct, the whole process would take FAR too long to be efficient. I actually thought of attempting to include this in a fan fic when I heard it. I rewatched MacGyver and realized that I wasn't the first to try.



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Time depends on the temperature. The more cold you apply, the faster it will freeze and so on.



In my oppinion, Graham Bell has a lot to answer for. It gets harder and harder to escape from the world, the news and worst of all, people.

 
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Yeah those are the kinds of things I was hoping to see tested in the MythBusters MacGyver Special, but alas 'twas not to be.



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Guess you can't have everything in paradiese Rock....
By the way Franc, waht sort of engeenier are you?



In my oppinion, Graham Bell has a lot to answer for. It gets harder and harder to escape from the world, the news and worst of all, people.

 
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One thing I've been tempted to try is to pour water into a rock crack and see what happens when you fast freeze it using a fire extinguisher or toss it in a freezer to speed up the process.

I know from Earth Science 11 in high school, as well as having to repair walls cracked by ice, water does expand causing cracks and full fractures in rocks, concrete and asphalt (known as frost heaves). As for a lock, it would have to be water tight, like a safe, in order for it to work.



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QUOTE (Rockatteer @ 21 March 2008 - 09:08 AM)
You'll need to explain that. Because when something gets cold or freezes, the atoms get closer together.. so the ice would have made the rock colder, ergo the atoms closer together, and the rock would be stronger.




Denser <> stronger, necessarily. Freezing a substance can increase density but will often make it much more brittle, which means that a sharp shock, such as a blow with a hammer or a swift kick, will cause it to snap rather than deform and remain intact. If you ever get to watch experiments or demos with liquid nitrogen the results are quite amusing... eg, you can easily shatter an inflated balloon into dozens of pieces simply by smacking it into something.

Not saying the tricks would have worked, as I don't think the overall situation allows the pressure to develop as needed... but if you freeze something it DOES become much easier to break it. (This is why professional thieves frequently carry freon cans; the average steering wheel lock (or bike lock) is no match for a can of freon and a ball-peen hammer.)




 
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QUOTE (stormkite @ 21 March 2009 - 11:08 AM)
QUOTE (Rockatteer @ 21 March 2008 - 09:08 AM)
You'll need to explain that. Because when something gets cold or freezes, the atoms get closer together.. so the ice would have made the rock colder, ergo the atoms closer together, and the rock would be stronger.




Denser <> stronger, necessarily. Freezing a substance can increase density but will often make it much more brittle, which means that a sharp shock, such as a blow with a hammer or a swift kick, will cause it to snap rather than deform and remain intact. If you ever get to watch experiments or demos with liquid nitrogen the results are quite amusing... eg, you can easily shatter an inflated balloon into dozens of pieces simply by smacking it into something.

Not saying the tricks would have worked, as I don't think the overall situation allows the pressure to develop as needed... but if you freeze something it DOES become much easier to break it. (This is why professional thieves frequently carry freon cans; the average steering wheel lock (or bike lock) is no match for a can of freon and a ball-peen hammer.)

very good point, and quite correct. wink.gif






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