My wife and I were discussing how intelligent people get around violent situations. This is relevant because her son is headed to Iraq.

I don't remember MacGyver intentionally killing anyone on any of the episodes, my wife says she remembers 1 person.

So my question is: Did MacGyver ever get to a point where violence was the only option available? If so, how many times is 6-7 years??

He almost goes over the edge again in "Lesson in Evil" - but doesn't actually kill Dr. Zito. Mac's a pretty patient man... it takes alot to get him truely angry.

Don't forget "Strictly Business" when MacGyver, again, has amnesia and aims the shotgun at Murdoc but he can't pull the trigger.

He's tried to "take out" Murdoc on several occasions.

a person with morels will always lose to a person without...

And that's not a bad thing. Because it shows that the person with morels knows better.

That's all mostly a result of self defense, tho. And one or the other moving in the right direction at the right (or wrong, depending on your POV) time!

MacGyver's never been one to shy away from a fight, in a sense. Yes, he always looks for the least violent method and usually in an inventive way is able to defeat the bad guys with minimal violence, if any- and no guns. That's pretty much what the show was about to a large degree.
He's had moments where he's been pushed to the edge, as was mentioned already. He's NEVER killed anyone- unintentionally or not. (unless we're gonna bring up the Jesse incident). He's physically punched a few people out- but that's about as violent as Mac gets.

In Log Jam, the final fight scene, MacGyver holds the bad guy down on the conveyor belt until the very last second and then jumps free leaving the bad guy with no option but to fall to his death.

The bad guys death was a direct result of MacGyvers actions. You can see him watching for the end of the belt and waiting.. holding the guy down as they get higher and closer to the end.

I'm not sure why he waited so long really.. he could have jumped off when he first reached the section with the side railing, but for some reason he choose the stay there holding the guy down until the very end.

I also remember the scene where the container opened and all the guns fell at the bad guys. I assume they were dead after that, were they? He surely would assumed that before he made the guns fall at them also?

I think the Yakuza guy made it pretty clear that he was going to kill Mac the instant that he let him up. He really had no choice but to hold on as long as he could, then either go over with him or save himself.

I don't think Mac knew that they were directly over those guys when he blew the container open. That was coincidence... or Karma, if you will.

Even though they both fought great, this is a good point. But I think you can compare it with the situation in Obsessed. Murdoc drives to him and he also jumped away on the last possible second, with Murdoc haven no option either but driving off the cliff.
And what if they did both jumped on the side railing? The fight would've continued and could've resulted in the same way. Or what if MacGyver than fell?

You know, I actually never thought it would result in their deaths. Now I think of it, it makes a good theory. A whole container filled with crates with guns in them.

But I also thinks that's the reason. How could he know?

Right! Now I remember! It weren't "only" weapons falling at them, it were crates full with them. No, I don't want to have one of those hit my head, actually. I think they would at least break the neck.

But I also thinks that's the reason. How could he know?

Exactly. How could he know? How could he know he would not end up over someone just passing by? Someone that happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time?

He was inside the container, he could not see what was going on out there. Wouldn't it be better (and less lethal and also less dangerous to himself) to wait till the container stood at solid ground (the ship?) again and then blew it open and make his escape?

And come back for the bad guys.

But they needed a fast resolution since the 45 minutes were over, and wasn't it appropriate, someone that used guns was killed by guns.

I thought it was a little bit exaggerated.

But the point is he did it. theres a common argument that MacGyver NEVER killed.. and its wrong... doesn't matter why he did it, but he was directly responsible for that guys death.

When they were still at the ground, MacGyver wasn't finished with his ism yet. If he waited till they were at the boat, he could've blown the door open, yes, but when they got out they probably just meet more gunbarrels and they would still be trapped. With blowing the container doors open in midair, it had more effect and would drag a lot more attention.

Maybe it is his responsibility. But the why does matter. If they ask why he did it, he can answer: 'Because else I would be dead too.' or he could say 'It was either him or me.' He can explain the fight and the death of his foe. OK, if he did jump to the side railing. He jumps off but the conveyor belt keeps on rolling. Maybe he could've run to catch him but he also could've been too late. So maybe he is responsible, but remember MacGyver hit the button by accident, ran on the conveyor belt to create a distance. Then the struggle over the knife started. If MacGyver did kill this guy, then he surely committed the perfect murder: he was wearing gloves, (so no fingerprints) and somehow punished him for things he was about to do. Like this guy wanted to shred Amy and Jack into pieces and tried to cut MacGyver into pieces with a chainsaw. He even cut off his own finger. Those guys of the Yakuza are really Looney Tunes. Even if they did caught him, he could've hanged himself in his cell. And MacGyver can tell the police what he wants. But I'm sure he said the truth, about the fight, about the chainsaw and the conveyor belt. Besides if the police says: 'hey why didn't you jump sooner to the siderailing?' MacGyver can say: 'Oh, yeah. So what if I did? The guy would've kept coming after me, until he killed me. We could've fallen over the side and then would we both be dead.' Or if they both rolled off the belt on the side railing, MacGyver could've ended up on his back with the guy on top of him and the knife could've ended up in his body. MacGyver didn't kill this guy, try to proof it. This guy attacked him with a chainsaw and a knife, so he was set out to kill MacGyver. MacGyver fought to protect his own life and jumped on time, causing this guy's death. His only motive would be: self-defense. Usually peoples who kills other peoples out of self-denfense, got clear names. What would you do?
Or MacGyver just wanted to reach the top.

Oh, yeah... I don't mean to deny that Mac was responsible. I guess a part of me just wants to justify it.

Mac was responsible for Glass's death, and the two guys on 'The Gun'. Deborah, too... he let go of her. Not on purpose (she did knife him) but there it is...

What about Piedra and General Narai?

your missing the point. we're not talking about if it was justified or not...

We're talking about the argument that MacGyver never killed anyone.

well.. um... he has... may not have been intentional.. was probably trying to figure out what to do next and simply ran out of time... but bad guys death was because Mac held him down until it was too late for anything else.

In the case of " Log Jam " , I think that yes, MacGyver ( unintentionally ) killed the guy that was fighting with him ( or fighting him ), whereas in the case of " Unfinished Business " , Deborah ( I think ) wanted to grab MacGyver by the hand ( or arm ) and drag him down so that he would flip over her and fall to his death at the bottom of the cliff. She seemed to have a pretty good foot-hold. And she checked to see that she WAS in control of that situation. She made MacGyver think that she did NOT have any foot-hold, so that when she fell to her death, MacGyver was left feeling guilty that she died. By the look on his face, it was like he was saying " I could have saved her. " I guess because of the kind of person that MacGyver is. . . very peaceful and respectful of other living things. Except in the case of " The challenge " when, at the end , he really wanted to kill Larson . He had the gun in his hand and he RE-EE-EALLY wanted to bop Larson one for having killed Booker. Until ( I can't remember the name of the character. But I am thinking of the guy that Cuba Gooding, Jr. played. . ) Cuba Gooding , Jr. called out to MacGyver. Who then stopped to look at what he was about to do. That he was , himself - a peaceful and non-violent man - was about to commit a violence. Larson was so evil that he brought it out in MacGyver. . . and now trying to come back to the original discussion. . .I think when MacGyver is brought to the point , to the edge of his existance, he could kill someone.
Sincerely,
Katey Mackay

Piedra had an unlucky fall. MacGyver didn't know, the needle fell there and General Narai simply tripped over the helicopter.

Now, that's the reason!

Okay- perhaps I should clarify my earlier statement.
MacGyver NEVER murdered anyone on the show!
(Because that would be premeditated killing with intent and obviously Mac never did that. The closest he came on that was with Larson in "The Challenge" and the way he was holding the gun I don't think he would have fired- just brained him really hard with the butt of the gun. Which, I suppose could have killed him if hard enough- but the point is, that he didn't.)

As far as accidentally killing someone- I suppose that might be true. I never really count Deborah or Murdoc (because they really killed themselves) and I pretty much view the guy in "Log Jam" the same way. He knew what he was getting into chasing MacGyver onto the loading ramp to begin with. I don't think it's MacGyver's fault that he got off in time to save himself and get away from the guy trying to kill him and the killer didn't do the same.

I'm sure he would have jumped off if MacGyver hadn't of been holding him down until the last minute, leaving the bad guy with no time to jump off.

Solders know what they are getting into when they join the army.. does that make it ok for them to die in a war?

Does she remember who?

MacGyver hates violence and certainly never intentionally killed anyone or anything.. but thats not to say that accidents and "no other option" haven't come into play at times.

I think the discussion above, about the "Log Jam" episode, is a good example of the "no other option" card being played.

What level of violence are you talking about?.. death.. or "less" violent forms?

Hi everyone:
I was just watching " Humanity" and the scene when MacGyver and Victor are walking together. Then MacGyver suggests that they take a few minutes to rest. They lie down and MacGyver is aware of the danger that Victor would want to kill him while he is sleeping, so MacGyver grabs the rock near by. I think MacGyver's intent was to bop Victor on the head ( kind-a like in " Through the eyes of a killer " what Laurie did to Ray Bellano in the end. ) But even though that would have been considered as self - defense, do you think MacGyver would have actually gone through with that?
Sincerely,
Kate Mackay

Is using a rock any different to using your fist to knock someone out? He probably thought using a rock means he wont hurt his hand

yeah.
I don't like to see anyone die- but it's an inevitable part of war- and it's a good chance that the Yakuzi guy might also face death at some point. He is after all the one that chose to pursue MacGyver onto the ramp that he had a good chance of falling from if he's not careful.

That rock thing in Humanity was in case he would try to kill him in his sleep MacGyver would use enough force to at least knock Victor out, causing a wound and not to bash in his skull.

Ok heres the facts of what happened.. you might want to re watch this scene yourself to verify...

1. MacGyver was laying on top of the bad guy holding him down.
2. MacGyver jumped off just as they approached the last "tunnel".
3. Bad guy went into under the "tunnel" before he had time to get up.
4. Bad guy couldn't see what was ahead because he was laying down facing head first. So therefore didn't know that he was at the end of the belt.

If MacGyver had jumped up earlier, the bad guy would also have been able to get up and continue fighting, and MacGyver would have been able to look for a non-lethal way of stopping him. (although from the mind set of the bad guy I think death may have been the only way of stopping him)

My take on it is that the bad guy died because MacGyver was holding him down until they reached the end of the belt. And then jumped off leaving the bad guy with no time to do anything. Now in my book that makes MacGyver responsible for his death. The reason the guy was there is irrelevant, it doesn't alter the above facts.

I'm not saying MacGyver planned to kill him but I do think his actions caused the death.

Then Murdoc's "death" in Cleo Rocks is also caused by his actions. With exception that Murdoc actually survived that.

But I can live with that.

Yeah, me too.

I think Mac knew in that scene from Log Jam that it was going to be either him or that Yakuza guy, and his own survival instinct just kicked in. It's hard to hold someone responsible for causing another's death if they were just trying to survive themselves. Plus, I think the Yakuza had a death wish anyway. Either that, or he was just dumb. (Maybe as a result of too many bonks on the head? )

yep, but we do need to acknowledge that his actions caused the death. We can't just make up excuses and say it didn't happen... well, I can't anyway.

In the context of the original question, I guess this would be one of those times when violence was the only way out.

Don't forget the train driver in Slow Death. He got fried by the electrical boobie trap MacGyver set up. It's not made clear if he lived or not, but the other guy called it justice and he wasn't moving so it seemed to imply he was electrocuted to death.