Yeah.

They're happening everywhere. But American news only focuses on America, or world events which effect Americans.

Even down here on the butt of the planet, we get mentally unstable people going off and killing others.. it happens everywhere and is on the rise.

Rock, I resent this. Not all Americans are as ethnocentric as you make it sound. To a certain extent you are correct, in the sense that all countries news sources are naturally going to cater to the nation from which they are being broadcast, but believe it or not, there are many American news sources that report on events outside of, and with no direct bearing on, America. Imagine that!

Rock, MG you are right. Violence is everywhere and violence against other people is on the rise everywhere. There are so many factors that influence this that it is impossible to single out one and address it as the solution to the problems.

The USA leads the world in violence. MG the incident you described of a person murdered over an MP3 player won't even make the front page here anymore. Kids in the US were killing each other over basketball shoes and track jackets 20 years ago.

I sometimes think violence is part of the Americaqn genetic code, it is so pervasive in our society. Blaming the gun is easy. Digging into the root of the problem is much more difficult, demanding that we take an honest look at the many aspects of American culture that lead to and glamorize violent acts. Just a few of the things that we would need to examine include:

Questions of race and gender. Why are the mass shooters in the US predominently white males? Is there something in the way white males are socialized in the US?

Questions of income. The gap between the richest and the poorest in the US is widening and the middle class is becoming increasingly disaffected. Middle Americans seem to pay a disproportionate amount of tax relative to income. They also see safety nets that were once taken forgranted disappearing at an alarming rate. Many Americans believe that when the time comes, they will no longer be able to retire, because the systems that they've paid into for retirement are gone. Social security, company pensions, and company retirement plans are no longer options for many older workers.

Questions of technology. The very tools designed to set us free and bring us closer together have, in fact, isolated us. With the click of a mouse or the tap of a key, we communicate instantly with people we call "friends" but we will never meet face to face. The technological advances that allow us to be so connected are also effective barricades to connections with the neighbors next door in the communities we live.

Questions of entitlement. The US thrives on a culture of entitlement. We believe that the world and society "owes" us a reward, regardless if we have earned it or not. The college owes us a degree simply because we show up. The boss owes us our job, even when we are slackers and avoid doing what we should. These are just a couple of examples but I could list many more. People expect things handed to them, instead of working for the reward. I remember attending and art show several years ago and meeting a Russian immigrant. She had her 10 year old son working at the show with her and I asked her why. Her answer has stayed with me and I think about it often. She told me her son works in her business so he learns "that money comes from work". In the US we have third and fourth generation welfare childern who have never been exposed to people who work for a living. Studies have shown that by the third generation, children raised on welfare do not connect receiving money with working to earn it.

I'm not saying that we should do away with welfare. It has its place in society as an assistant to people who are struggling. The welfare laws actually benefit those who refuse to work, and penalize the working poor. American society would be better off if the working poor were given greater support until they can stand on their own.

Questions of core values such as honesty, integrity and repect for others. I don't think there are to many people who would argue that we have seen a decline in these values in our society. I am a corporate training in a very high tech industry. I teach a lot of analytical and monitoring laboraotry classes, occupational safety and health, environmental permitting and sadly, a class I call data integrity. This class is about ethics in business and maintaining the integrity of the data generated by the analytical and air monitoring labs. Fraud in environmental labs is a huge problem in our industry and I find it very depressing that I have to teach a class to tell people not to cheat. You would think that woiuld just be part of the work ethic of each individual, but sadly its not.

I grew up and came of age in the 80s or what has become known as "the decade of greed" Movies like WallStreet and Greed glorified the lying, cheating and backstabbing that is the business practice of today in America. I swear sometimes our business motto is do unto others before they can do unto you. Business CEOs who drain a company and run it into financial ruin are glorified in our new media. We don't look at the crimes committed in the context, we focus on the mansions and the cars and the exotic travels and all the luxuries that the stolen money has bought for the criminal and we envy that we can't get those things. The people whose futures were stolen with their money are left out in the cold, with nothing to show for decades of loyalty and hard work except broken promises and empty bank accounts. The average person covets, yet will never have the means to posess.

These are just a few of the threads that are woven into the fabric of American society that leaves people on the fringe feeling more and more isolated and displaced from the society as a whole. I don't know how to answer these questions. People who are a whole lot smarter than me can't answer them either. I do beleive, however, that if we don't answer them and soon, the shootings on Monday are just a prelude for what is to come.

Again, my intent has not been to offend anyone. I am trying, like so many, to make sense of the senseless in the only way I can.

I think your points can be aimed at western society.. it's not just America.

However America is the biggest single society in the western world, so it makes sense they their problems would be the most "escalated".

You need to look at the crime as a percentage of your whole society.

US has the largest amount of people, therefore. naturally, it will have the highest amount of crime. Highest amount of guns, highest amount of shootings and so on.

It would actually be interesting to see some stats for other countries to see what the percentages of population vs. crime is. I would expect it to be fairly close in most wester countries now.

Having said that.. our society is in decline, people have no respect for other people any more. We live in a world of ME and I

Personally I think just about everything we're talking about can be fairly easily traced back to political correctness, namby pamby, wissy, "we can't enforce rules and laws because it makes people feel bad or interferes with their rights" complete and utter BULLpoo!!



ok I'm done here.

I think your points can be aimed at western society.. it's not just America.

However America is the biggest single society in the western world, so it makes sense they their problems would be the most "escalated".

You need to look at the crime as a percentage of your whole society.

US has the largest amount of people, therefore. naturally, it will have the highest amount of crime. Highest amount of guns, highest amount of shootings and so on.

It would actually be interesting to see some stats for other countries to see what the percentages of population vs. crime is. I would expect it to be fairly close in most wester countries now.

Having said that.. our society is in decline, people have no respect for other people any more. We live in a world of ME and I

Personally I think just about everything we're talking about can be fairly easily traced back to political correctness, namby pamby, wissy, "we can't enforce rules and laws because it makes people feel bad or interferes with their rights" complete and utter...



ok I'm done here.

Well said Rock. Nobody wants to take a stand because we might offend somebody. Even now, in the postings I've made here, I run certain things through the "have I offended" filter.

I don't advocate using nasty language and hurtful words to refer to various ethnic and religious groups. Like it or not, we are all in this together and we need to figure out how to make it work, not just for us but for our children and the yet unborn generations.

I have to wonder, is violence so prevelent in Western culture because America has been so prolific in exporting its culture into the rest of the world? Just a thought.

I remember May 2002 I was in Belize walking around the town of San Pedro. I was just out exploring when i came across this little local bakery. I went in to check things out and learned just how pervasive American culture really is. The bakery offered birthday cakes for kids, no big deal, a lot of people in other countries celebrate that way. What suprised me though, was the themes for the cakes. People could choose to have their birthday cake decorated with Mickey Mouse, Ninja Turtles, Power Rangers, or Barbie. Many of the people living in San Pedro didn't have running water indoors, but they all had TVs tuned to American programs.

Makes me wonder sometimes.

Wow. Mgrrl, rarely do I encounter people as articulate, astute, and as well-versed on the debated subject matter as you. My hat's off to ya! I think alot of your social observations are spot-on, and many a professor of sociology would agree with you as to the root problems of many of our social ills...

I also agree with you in regards to political corectness. Some corectness is neccessary to avoid rudeness. Thank goodness we don't refer to ethnic groups in America the same way we did even 50 years ago! No one wants to walk around on eggshells, nor should they, but a certain amount of respect and sensitivity is reqired for citizens to function in a civil, cohesive society. There is a huge difference between diplomacy and pandering. That being said, political correctness can run amok, and I really see your perspective on this Rock. Recently all school curricula pertaining to the Holocaust has been removed from British public schools. This occured because certain muslim groups who deny the Holocaust ever occured (yes, really) have become "offended" by this subject matter. This is an exellent example of "caving" to political correctness.

Rock, as far as living in an "I" and "Me" society, thank God for that! I am so glad I don't live in a country where my only worth is determined by being part of a collective. I cherish my personal liberties, rights, and freedoms. But...as with political correctness, the "I" and "Me" can spiral out of control. Can and has. I do agree that much of the Western world is caught up in a cult of egocentricity. No doubt about that at all.

Rock and grrl... to you both. There's nothing I like more than thought-provoking discourse with highly intelligent people. (It doesn't happen often enough.) (Some of my friends are kind of dum-dums, bless their hearts.)

I've been giving this shooting a lot of thought. For some reason it has affected me very much. Normally when a shooting incident like this happens I think about it for a few days and then I kind of "forget" about it.

But this one is bugging me, don't know why.

I just read an answer on RDA.com about the shooting and someone said we all would be capable of killing someone if it is by protecting someone.

That's exactly what I've been saying for a few years now and everyone looks at me like I'm nuts when I do. (say that, I mean, not kill anyone!)

I am VERY protective when it comes to my family, friends and my dog.
If anyone would try to hurt one of the mentioned above, Í think I'd mess that person up a bit. (Like the poll in the House Boat section) But I would do it with my bare hands and feet. No guns.

The thing about the VT shooting that really upsets me: I've been an outcast for years too. Which made me sad and depressed, but I never got the idea of killing someone. Maybe the girl that kept beating me up every day.

This Cho dude obviously was upset because of rich kids and all. Never fitted in, though people had tried talking to him!
He had no right to take so many innocent lives. He'd better make a statement by killing himself.
The first victim was a 18-yr old girl he was obsessed with.
Now I'm obsessed with RD and Russell Crowe, but I enjoy every second of it and I surely will not get a 9 mm gun to shoot them???
That is so wack.

Yeah, this shooting has left me unsettled too...more than usual.

Sheepy I'm stunned to hear you say you were an outcast. With your friendly and sociable personality, I can't imagine why this would be so, but I am sorry to hear it. How utterly horrible that you were beat up by someone! My heart goes out to you.

I would definetely kill to protect someone I love. I don't know if everyone is capable of it or not, but I sure am! (Says the girl who shrieks when killing spiders!) I would take the law enforcement approach: try to disable them first, but if that didn't work, you do what you have do to protect that which is most dear. Or at least go down like a champ and later everyone will cry about how you tried to defend them!

Yeah I agree, lots of people are alienated, but most people don't go on murderous rampages like this individual did. There is something about these people that is not just alienated, but mentally sick.

All humans have the capacity for great evil or great good. All humans have the capacity to kill. All humans have the power of choice. When you get down to the brass tacks, we all sometime in our lives come to a decision point. We either choose good and follow that road. Or we choose evil and follow a road of ultimate self destruction.

We are defined by our choices. I will be teaching data ethics tomorrow to a group of new employees. The lesson ends with the statement "committing data fraud is a choice. Sooner or later in your career, you will be put into a position where you will have to make that choice. Are you going to do what is easy? Or are you going to do what is right?"

I personally believe that killing to defend my family is a moral choice that I could make if I had to. If I have tried everything else and all other avenues are shut down, then yes I would kill to protect my loved ones. It takes me a very long time to form close attachments to people, bu tonce I have, they become friends for life. I am fiercely protective and loyal to my friends and I will stand with them and for them when they need me.

Thanks, Devon for your kind words. I have studied a lot of political science and sociology over the years, and I try to keep current with the pulse of the world. It is my responsibility as a citizen of the world to pay attention to what's going on so that I can make choices that benefit my family, my friends and my community. We can all learn from each other if we take the time to listen and discuss these heavy issues in a calm and rational manner. When we do, everyone benefits.

Well it also how were learns civics here in the US too. My mothers Civics teacher(not use if it was collage to High school) said that They would be happy if all the students got out of the class was that there RIGHTS ENDED WHEN INFRIGEING ON AN OTHE RIGHTS.

Trust me people think its there Goddess RIGHT to do any dam thing they please any more.

Aaaaah, don't be and you can keep your heart (not that I don't appreciate it but it's a vital part of living, you know )
I've lived through it and with me all bad guys too, LOL. (MacGyver pulled me through, to be completely honest. That's why he REALLY is me hero and why I got emotional when I met RD)

In stead of letting bad things get the best of you, you can also try and deal with it. It has made me to who I am today. I've grown to be a strong person who's incredibly insecure at times. Arrogant to some, shy to others. I come with a manual hahaha.

We can shake hands on this! I'm an animal when someone tries to hurt my loved one's. I think that's my Hyde part. The Jeckyll is quite friendly, you know.

Yep I would agree that killing in self defense is quite different to murder.

Its hard to say for sure what one would do in a situation require lethal force to protect oneself or ones loved ones. Talk is easy, put in the situation we might act quite differently to what we think.

I would like to think though, that if my children where in danger I wouldn't hesitate to use what ever level of force was needed to ensure their safety.

Rock, I completely agree with your sentiment about laws and not enforcing them because nobody wants to step on anybody's toes. I get so sick of that mentality. it used to be that when you got sent to the principal's office, it was the worst thing in the world. The worse part was what was waiting for you when you got home, because the principal called your mom. And then she said, "Just wait till your dad gets home...." It made you think twice about getting in trouble, and it made you regret it when you did. Now you're not even sure you can legally make your kid sit in the corner for a time out... "ABUSE ABUSE!!!!!" My psyche was never damaged by a swat to the behind or being grounded... I realize there is over doing it...that's not what I'm talking about here. Kids used to know that authority meant what it said. Not any more.

Sheepy...you and I are on the same page with the outcast thing. Being an outcast doesn't necessarily make you have violent tendencies or give you a need for revenge. You can either destroy others as a result...or destroy yourself...or you can get over it and become a somewhat normal functioning adult. I was abused, rejected, beat up, threatened, and my parents didn't even show me much acceptance...but I never once thought about killing anyone. Even when I became depressed and suicidal, I didn't have it in me to kill myself! But then, thank God I got over it and now I fit in the "normal functioning adult" category...(insert smarty pants comments here...) Glad Sheepy made it with me! So what's the difference between me/Sheepy and Cho? I have no idea...

Oh thats simple... MacGyver!

but seriously.... I think it's pretty clear that in our own ways, we're all agreeing with each other. We can all see the same basic problems with not only this shooting, but society in general.

It's interesting to that we can relate these events back to MacGyver episodes, particularly Hellweek, which deals with this very issue of a student going over the edge, but also this weeks episode of Gunz n boys deals with the gun issue, among other things; as does the episode "The gun".

Interesting that we're still dealing with the same things now as we where 10-15 years ago.

You know they should do special airings of Hell Week, The Gun and Gunz 'N Boyz for what happened in Virginia.

They're happening everywhere. But American news only focuses on America, or world events which effect Americans.

Even down here on the butt of the planet, we get mentally unstable people going off and killing others.. it happens everywhere and is on the rise.

Yes people kill people in other countries too. Humans are a violent species. But most of the time these are one on one cases and most of the time, however demented, there is a reason. Like shooting someone in a robbery, or in a jelaous rage. Those we have at least five a day here in Detroit, and they barely count as news. When was the last time anyone went into a school or an office and shot a bunch of people for no good reason in other countries? Here is a couple from recent years that I can remember: The Chechens in Russia - doesn't really count 'cause that was an act of terrorism and not a single mentally unstable person. There was that one guy in Canada a couple of months back, but cases like that only happen there once in a blue moon, not once every week (if I recall correctly there were 4 cases in the last 25 years)! And I do remember that crazy guy in Kiwiland that shot a bunch of people, but again how many times does that happen in NZ? There was the highschool student in Germany who shot 15 people a result of which was that they raised recreational firearm licencing from 18 to 21 (note the words- "recreational" and "licencing"). It remains to be seen if any changes in the law will come out of this incident.

The point is that the % of people, comparative to the total population, dying of gun violence in other countires is very low.

And since someone was asking for statistics, here are some:

"Britain's 46 homicides involving firearms last year was the lowest since the late 1980s. New York City, with 8 million people compared to 53 million in England and Wales, recorded 590 homicides last year. " - The New York Times


The US is #8 in murders by firearm per capita in the world (by comparison Australia #27, NZ #31, Germany #21, sorry don' have data on Belgium) and #4 in terms of total number of murders by firearm with 8,259 deaths (again for comparison NZ had 7, Australia 59 and Germany 384 in the same timeframe).
- United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime

Yeah, in a few days it will be the fifth anniversary of this and thus the students are even more upset about the recent events.

Another thing that made the headlines in Germany in the past months were parents that beat their children to death or let them starve to death and there also were some cases where baby corpses were found in the freezer where they lay for years.

Sometimes I don't understand the people.

Once again, it was just too easy for a deeply disturbed person to get their hands on a gun. I'm hoping and praying that this will be the catalyst that FINALLY forces America to get serious about gun control.

Guns are not the problem, the problem was the homicidal maniac with the gun. A gun lying in a case is harmless until someone pulls the trigger. That guy could have come to that school with a knife and started killing people, knives are just as dangerous as guns. The reason people cry out against guns is because they can cause more damage faster than a more primitive weapon. Maybe those people were lucky that the guy didn't build a bomb and bring it there, even more people would have died depending where the bomb was placed. Bombs are pretty easy to make with common household materials. My father is a hunter in his spare time, he goes out into the woods and hunts: this does not mean that my father is a blood-thirsty monster because he carries a gun. While in the woods my father enjoys nature, he just loves to sit in his treestand and watch the little creatures of the forest, and when he finally shoots a deer he brings it home as food to sustain us. It is not the guns that are the problem, it is the people who carry them. If you outlaw guns, only the outlaws will have guns. Did you hear the story of this whole street that advertised they were gunless and they were all robbed within a weak. Criminals prey upon defenseless people. Luckily the Constitution guarentees the right to keep and bear arms. It is a proven fact that in places where there is no gun control crime rates are lower. I could go on for hours ranting like this and I am sorry if I have offended anyone, this is just a topic in which I feel very strongly.

Actually MacGyverluver that was the point I was trying to get a cross before. Hell the guy could have come to school with some Needles and a few some of Insulin and Overdosed the people on Insulin instead of shooing them.


ANYTHING can be used as a weapon, if your just stop and think about it.

Do you mean, that there were shops that were robbed, or ordinary people in their apartments or houses?

I only know the story about the teenager that had forgotten his key and tried to climb trough the window into the house late in the night and his father shot him because he thought he was an burglar.

And that certainly wouldn't have happened without a gun.

How can he just shoot someone without asking him beforehand who he is and what he is doing there? Granted, the boy just could have ringed, of course. He also was stupid, assumed, that he knew his father had a gun.

And does not the police advice, even if you are aware that a burglar is in your apartment, that you stay in your sleeping room and not trying to get hold of him yourself? You can buy yourself a new computer but you can't buy yourself a new life. That is my opinion.

Same goes for owner of shops, I think. If they shoot back in a robbery only innocent people come between two fires.

The other thing that we have GOT to get a handle on in America is serious mental illness. If Cho had been effectively treated for his condition, I doubt he would have done this. But the mental health system in this country is completely broken.

Also, I strongly believe that if someone has a history of serious MI that could potentially result in violence towards themselves or someone else (I'm thinking here of severe, recurring depression, psychopathy, bipolar illness, schizophrenia, etc) they should be barred from owning a gun... ANY sort of gun, unless several psychiatrists examined them and were willing to certify that the person had been free of symptoms for a certain length of time (i.e., several years)... and this probably would not happen, because most of the above conditions are chronic to one extent or another. And BTW, the majority of suicides in the U.S. are committed with guns. My mom tried to suicide a few years ago. I'm just very glad she didn't have access to a gun, because if she had, she probably wouldn't be alive today.

Let's face it... it's just too darn easy in this country for ANYONE to get their hands on a gun. And our crazy media just keeps glorifying violence.

And I agree with those who point out that if other people had had guns, the death toll may well have been higher. That is, if it would have had any effect at all... at Columbine, there WAS an armed guard on duty at the school, and he was totally helpless to stop the shooters.

No wonder my poor mother wants to move to Canada... I've considered it more than once myself...